Forty Fathoms

thekingcobra · Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:17 am Post subject: Upsizing your tank

I have a question about the process of upgrading from my 55 to a 100 gal tank.
My current 55 is a sumpless tank with a HOB skimmer. I have approx 40lbs of LR in it, 6 - 8 corals and about 6 fish plus stars, crabs, snails, and shrimp.
Right now I have about 2 1/2 - 3 inch crushed coral bed (which I hate because its so deep and hard to keep it turned and clean without stirring up alot of crap. The one good thing about up sizing now is that my bottom bed will be alot thinner, I'm hoping for 1 - 1 1/2 inch max now.
Heres where I'm questioning the change over...

My plan is to siphon off the existing tank water into a 40 gal tank which will be the sump on the new 100 gal setup...and put whatever extra (if any on a 5 gal pail til it goes into the new 100 gal tank. Same for the coral, LR and livestock.
To remove the crushed coral bottom bed....How do I move it from one tank to the next without causing unbalance of nitrates and so one in the bigger tank? I expect the cloudy water in the bigger tank for a couple days which I can live with, but I am worried about a spike in the water when its added back in due to stirring up of the bottom bed.
On top of this, I will now need more water added...is this going to cause me to go into a whole new cycle in the bigger tank? What are the odds of losing stock in this change over? I dont have the option of setting up the bigger tank prior to teardown of the old one...It will be set up on my rec room bar in the same spot the smaller one is now?
Am I missing anything else? What should I be aware of?
Any help on this would be greatly appreciated, I plan the swap for end Oct/first Nov.
_________________
55 Gal
40+ lbs LR
1 x blood shrimp
2 x pepermint shrimp
1 x purple tipped anenome
1 x toadstool leather coral
1 x Pearl bubble coral
3 x Zoo coral
5 x turbo snails
10 x hermit crabs

kenny · Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 61 Location: Frankville

I don't feel there are any ways you can disturb the sandbed and not cause a spike. When I moved from a 40 reef to a 90 I washed the sand clean in pails with a hose. The 40- had run for 3 years and like your tank, was in the no-no land between dsb and thin substrate. I lost a lot of substrate critters like spaghetti worms and the like but enough survived from in the rocks to repopulate my new tank.

I had my livestock in the new tank 24 hours after the Sandbed and LR went in and had plenty of water for changes mixed ahead of time. I never lost a single coral or fish during of after the change. But it did take a year for the new tank to fully reestablish

thekingcobra · Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:50 pm Post subject:

OK thats scarin the crap out of me...I live by Murphy's law...if anything bad can happen...it will happen to me!

OK, this is what I was going to do...After draining the tank into other containers, and I was down to just the substrate, I was going to move that tank out of its spot, put the new tank in that spot. At this point I was going to scoop the substrate from the small tank and place it in the large tank...Is this a bad idea? After doing that I was going to start adding the water slowly back into it but slow enough as not to cause a huge coud in the water. Once the water was high enough, I would add the LR, Corals, and livestock back in. Then I was going to start mixing up some water to top up the other half of the tank like I had just done a large water change......Yes?...No?
_________________
55 Gal
40+ lbs LR
1 x blood shrimp
2 x pepermint shrimp
1 x purple tipped anenome
1 x toadstool leather coral
1 x Pearl bubble coral
3 x Zoo coral
5 x turbo snails
10 x hermit crabs

Nebthet · Joined: 01 Aug 2008 Posts: 212

That is pretty much the way I did my upgrade, just make sure you have someone there to help you move the tanks when you switch them because even with wet sand in the bottom it is darn heavy.

rkelman · Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 228 Location: Belleville

I'd rinse the substrate before re using it. Except for a cup maybe.

Systemtool · Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 58 Location: Kingston, ON

There will be a lot of crap in there that you don't want to release into the water of the new tank. Even if you neatly scoop it all over, I'm with Rkelman, I would rinse it.

kenny · Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 61 Location: Frankville

yea its like brown/grey mud that comes out. And keeps coming out until your thinking, "Man is there going to be any aragonite left"?

I found it easy to store my inverts and fish in a tub with a blanket thrown over it for a day or two until the new tank cleared.

I used 50% old water and new water for the tubs. The rest went into the new tank. I washed my substrate in buckets with a garden hose, putting only around 6" in at a time and tipping off the dirty water down the driveway 5 or 6 times each bucket load.

The new water mellowed pretty fast having enough older water to help it mature. But I still had small diatom and cyano blooms even when I rinsed my substrate. I did not have any Ammonia issues and I attribute that to washing the substrate. Also to using 40 lbs of 3 year old rock and 30 lbs of cured new rock. And my bioload from the 40 was small in the 90.

thekingcobra · Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:47 am Post subject:

Well, heres where I'm at and what I have done........

I picked up a 140 Gal custom made Miricles tank on Sat (looks like brand new for a whopping $100 Very Happy

08:00 Sunday morning - I drained all my water, critters, coral, LR into several pails, and coolers. Once I had it down to the crushed coral bed I left just enough water to cover it and keep it wet. I managed to move the 55 gal from my bar counter down to the floor and then sat around waiting for my buddy to show up so I could set the 140 onto the bar. While I was waiting, I cut 2 layers of 1/2 inch plywood for under it for more support and mounted them in place.
Once my buddy showed up, and a couple beers later we struggled and got the tank into its new home. Very Happy

Next, without washing the substrate Wink

, I scooped it from the old tank with a dust pan and lightly placed it into the bottom of the new tank. Once it was all in there I tooh a small plastic tank rake I have and smoothed and leveled it out. Next came the water. After about 25 - 30 gallons of the old water had been poured in (extreamly slow) I figured I had enough hieght to place the LR in so that it would be totally covered. Next, in went the corals, then the fish, snails, stars, crabs urcins ect. Next I finished adding the old tank water by slowly pouring it directly onto a large piece of LR so it would not stir up the bottom.
Once I had all the old water in, I started mixing 5 gals at a time and started adding. I added 20 gals approx bringing the tank to about 1/2 full, about 70 gals.
I placed my power heads in to get the water moving, and got the heaters in there to bring the temp up. At first I hooked up a pump and an airstone to give off some bubbles, but later removed it and sat my HOB skimmer right down in the tank. Its a bit of a fall for the return water, but for a couple days it should be fine.
By 8pm Sunday night the water was about 70% clear, corals had opened up, the carpet had been fed some frozen fish and the fish , crabs, snails ect seemed quite happy with the new space. Water seems fine, but I thought it was too soon to test...I'll do that tonight.
This morning when I went down to see how it looked, the water was crystal clear and everybody met me at the front of the tank to beg for breakfast Wink

Over the next week I plan to add about 10 gals per night til I bring the tank up to the full mark. During this time, I've decided just to be sure, I'm going to do some basement to floor support beams. Theres allready a support post down there because its a support wall but better safe than sorry! I also want to make a few more supports in the bar area itself just to be safe.
Within a few days I will have to Drill the back for the sump now that I know its not tempered (thanks Jim). Once thats done the sump goes in and the plumbing begins...

I'll try to remember to take some pics tonight with my crappy camera and update them daily on the progress.
_________________
55 Gal
40+ lbs LR
1 x blood shrimp
2 x pepermint shrimp
1 x purple tipped anenome
1 x toadstool leather coral
1 x Pearl bubble coral
3 x Zoo coral
5 x turbo snails
10 x hermit crabs

thekingcobra · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:42 am Post subject:

Day 3, took some pics last night of the tank after work at 50% full and crystal clear water (I was so impressed). Next I mixed up some more water and added roughly about another 20 gals/4 x 5gal pails. After adding water, I did a bit of landscaping. Up til last night, I had just scattered the rock around the bottom of the tank so that it was covered. I made a bit of a pile now in the center of the tank and noticed that now I have what looks like no LR in this tank! It looks sooooo bare! Rolling Eyes

I see where lots of my cash is going in the near future.
I chkecked last night under the house in the basement where the tank is situated and there is a 18" x 18" cement block post directly under it, so I have absolutely no worries about a floor collapsing or sagging issue in the future. The only thing I will be doing (for sure) is re-enforcing the bar top counter top and the cupboard space under the tank just to be safe. My problem with that is how much suppot I can put under there and still be able to put a 55 gal sump in there Confused

At day 3 I have the tank at roughly 90 gals, and I plan to add another 20 gals tonight. Is that too much too fast?
The way I look at it its like doing very regular water changes or large top up, lol.

I didn't get the pics on last night but I will try again tonight...We lost our good camer and are now using an antique (probably one of the first digitals) so the quality suxxxx.
_________________
55 Gal
40+ lbs LR
1 x blood shrimp
2 x pepermint shrimp
1 x purple tipped anenome
1 x toadstool leather coral
1 x Pearl bubble coral
3 x Zoo coral
5 x turbo snails
10 x hermit crabs

jimskoi · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject:

Im glad everything is working out good for you.
I would skid a day or so for added anymore new SW.Let it run for a couple days.You dont want to ad too much too fast.
_________________
"Its all fun and games until the glass breaks"

thekingcobra · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:13 am Post subject:

Oooooooops Embarassed

I soulda checked on here last night, I added another 20 gals...
Ok then, makes sense tho, I wont add any tonight, or tomorrow...its up about 110 gals approx now... I'll finish it up on the weekend. OMG! actually I cant believe what I'm thinking...I have to still drill it...I cant go any further anyway Embarassed

Jim - If I make a Gan run in the next couple days, do you still have the bit for the drill? and when I pick it up, how much for a couple bulk heads?
I'll get into more questions when I see ya but, do you silicone the fittings...Im guessing ya would.
_________________
55 Gal
40+ lbs LR
1 x blood shrimp
2 x pepermint shrimp
1 x purple tipped anenome
1 x toadstool leather coral
1 x Pearl bubble coral
3 x Zoo coral
5 x turbo snails
10 x hermit crabs

thekingcobra · Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:58 am Post subject:

Last night I took a night off from filling up any more water to let it run through a couple of days. I need to stop at this level anyway because I almost forgot that I have to still drill the back of the tank for the sump and the water level would have been too high.
Its unbelievable how happy everything seems to be in the bigger tank. Unfortunately, I did have a loss. Sad

I was sitting watching the tank, like I do so intently, like watching a TV when I had a feeling someone was missing.... Then it came to me...where is my Gold banded maroon clown? I looked around in his favorite spots and since they are in a new tank I looked for new hiding spots. Finally I found him belly up in one of the back corners Sad

I hope this will be the only lss for the change over, but am beginning to wonder if its me and this particular breed of fish. Its the 4th one I've lost in about a year and a half. Twice I have gotten pairs from Jim and I just dont seem to have any luck with them.
Oh I did do one small mod to the tank last night tho! I read on another forum about tank backgrounds where a guy was asking about car window tint, remembering that I had bought some a couple of years ago for my old mustang and never got around to putting it on, I thought, hey...why not giv it a shot...its not permanent like Paint if I dont like it Wink

After getting it in place and alot of waste, I had the finished product. I am so impressed! Very Happy

I wish I had thought of this before. I used whats called "Extream Black Limo Tint" and did the back and side panes. When looking at it from the front, its totally black looking on those panes. Everything just stands out so well, almost jumps out at ya. The big advantage to this is that I can still stand at the back side of the tank and be able to look into the tank to inspect it for missing critters ect. Also, where its stick on and more or less sealed, the problem with water drips or salt creep shouldnt affect the look.
Of course like with everything I did see one minor drawback. My power Blue Tang seemed a bit messed up but the whole thing. I watched as he swam back and forth end to end and actually bumped into the end panes a couple times. I think its thrown off their depth perception in some way Confused

Is that possible? Is it a bad thing or will they get used to it?
_________________
55 Gal
40+ lbs LR
1 x blood shrimp
2 x pepermint shrimp
1 x purple tipped anenome
1 x toadstool leather coral
1 x Pearl bubble coral
3 x Zoo coral
5 x turbo snails
10 x hermit crabs

rkelman · Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 228 Location: Belleville

why wouldnt you drill it before starting it up? You are just begging for a crack doing it with that much water in it imo.

joeyt66 · Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:59 am Post subject:

I used the window tint as well and really liked the results.

You shoulda had it drilled when it was empty. I drilled my 220g in place and it was very nerve racking. I drained alot of the water out of my tank. Ill see if i can find my 220 drilling thread for ya.
_________________
"There now I shouldn't need to buy anything else thats expensive " Ya right!!!!

joeyt66 · Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:04 am Post subject:

you may want to drain some water out , maybe into a sump or large container when drilling. Theres alot of weight/pressure on the glass when full of water. Heres the link
http://fortyfathoms.10.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1359&highlight=
_________________
"There now I shouldn't need to buy anything else thats expensive " Ya right!!!!

thekingcobra · Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:42 am Post subject:

rkelman · Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 228 Location: Belleville

aaaalrighty then.

thekingcobra · Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject:

OK, its been awhile...decided not to drill the tank...going with overflow boxes. Heres a pick of what I was planning to do...let me know if anyone sees something I dont. Its mainly about the plumbing, I'm unsure about it.....

_________________
55 Gal
40+ lbs LR
1 x blood shrimp
2 x pepermint shrimp
1 x purple tipped anenome
1 x toadstool leather coral
1 x Pearl bubble coral
3 x Zoo coral
5 x turbo snails
10 x hermit crabs

jimskoi · Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject:

The only thing that I would change would be the overflow boxes.Dont have them going into 1 pipe.Have 2 pips.Safer that way.Other than that.Looks good.
_________________
"Its all fun and games until the glass breaks"

rkelman · Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 228 Location: Belleville

What's feeding the Fuge?

thekingcobra · Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:36 am Post subject:

jimskoi · Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:40 am Post subject:

"T" off from the return pump or add a small powerhead.
_________________
"Its all fun and games until the glass breaks"

Daydreamer · Joined: 10 Jan 2009 Posts: 4

do'nt forget to light the refugium

thekingcobra · Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject:

OK does this look better? and if so, will my sump look like this Jim?

_________________
55 Gal
40+ lbs LR
1 x blood shrimp
2 x pepermint shrimp
1 x purple tipped anenome
1 x toadstool leather coral
1 x Pearl bubble coral
3 x Zoo coral
5 x turbo snails
10 x hermit crabs

jimskoi · Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:34 pm Post subject:

The first set up is better.Its not a good thing to have the fuge in the center.You dont want alot of water running through it.
I can build it anyway that you wish but I would go with the first one.
_________________
"Its all fun and games until the glass breaks"